Lacing up the gloves:
Barbara Hall on big city life, 1967 gay bars and that Mel person

[Note: A real thrill for me -- my first paid (!) article and first interview, with the Mayor of Toronto, no less! Looking back, I smile at my softball questions but I'm still happy with it and take no blame for the Mayor's subsequent defeat at the polls! That darn Mel!]


As the November 10 election date draws near, Barbara Hall is just slightly behind in the polls and has been dismissed by certain Toronto newspapers as a political lightweight who lacks a clear vision of what this Megacity could be. Could this possibly be the same woman who's arguably been the best Mayor Toronto's had in a decade and definitely the most gay-positive Mayor ever? By the time we sat down in her Martha-Stewart-goes-to-IKEA country kitchen and she'd poured me an orange juice, I was seriously in awe of how nice this woman was. As we began to talk, I was relieved to discover a definitive politician. While she made me feel comfortable in her genuinely warm presence, her cool intelligence was soon on full display as I tried to quietly draw out the fighter in Barbara Hall.

Scott Dagostino: Well, I thought I should get any biases right out of the way and say I think your record the past few years as Mayor of Toronto has been excellent.

Barbara Hall: Thank you.

SD: One of the things that has struck me about you is that, unlike your recent predecessors, you've been very active in community events in Toronto. One of the things that we've noticed, obviously, is that you've been very high-profile in the gay community. An attitude like yours unfortunately isn't common among mayors so I wondered how yours came about. Is it something that evolved naturally?

BH: (nodding) It's just something that evolves naturally. I first came to Toronto in 1967 and one of the first people I met here was a gay man who lived in Yorkville and one night, I was at his house for dinner and afterwards we went out for a drink to a bar - a gay bar, which in Toronto in 1967 was up over a laundromat on Yonge Street, I think. (laughing) So, to me, it's just a natural part of doing things with your friends and neighbours.

SD: Official relations seem to work so well here as opposed to, say, London, Ontario, where the mayor stands by her bigotry - she doesn't want to talk about [her refusal to proclaim] Pride Day and has been literally staying in her office, not answering the phone. I mean, why do you think relations work so well in Toronto, considering that there's so much more potential for conflict over diversity?

BH: Well, I guess it's how you see people and respect differences and if you believe that the mayor has the capacity to be supportive of people. One of the most moving experiences of my three years as mayor was the response that I got the first year I went in the Pride Day parade as Mayor. When I went as Mayor, many people said to me that they'd lived in Toronto their entire lives and they'd never felt a full part of the city. I recognized that it's the office that's important. It's fine to have to have 'Barbara Hall' there - I'd walked in Pride before and I will after - but it's the office that officially recognizes the community. I take this role very seriously - it can make people feel that they're valued members of their communities.

SD: There is the fear now that, with less councilors in a Megacity and over two million people lumped together, all the gains that we've made are going to be watered down substantially. A lot of people are concerned that they'll have no voice, so any advice?

BH: Well, you know, that's the risk of becoming bigger. I know that people who've been well represented by government are concerned, so people who haven't traditionally been well represented have a greater level of anxiety. That's one of the reasons why who we elect, both as Mayor and as councilors, will be so important. I think that it will be important to have a Mayor who understands many of the issues that the gay and lesbian community face and, you know, I don't claim to understand or know everything but I'm accessible and will always meet with people to find out the things I don't know. It will require a lot of work to keep the kind of accessibility we've created. Is it impossible? No. The positive result will be that we take the openness that we've developed in parts of Toronto and expand it to the whole area! I mean, there are lots of gay men and lesbian women who live in Etobicoke and North York, and I think if we work together, we can ensure that their benefits get expanded, not diminished.

SD: That leads into a comment I've been thinking about. Susan Cole wrote that the biggest problem for you is that you are viewed as a downtown, core Toronto sort of person but, when you get out into the suburban areas, a lot of the people out there haven't really paid attention to you until now. It seems to me that the campaign is seen as you - viewed as the downtown person suburbia knows nothing about - vs. Mel Lastman, Mr. Suburbia, who knows absolutely nothing about the vitality of downtown Toronto, and that electing either one of you will destroy the other's area. Is that accurate?

BH: No. I don't think it is accurate. Some people have tried to define this campaign as an urban vs. suburban one.

SD: Very much so, yes.

BH: Clearly, there are some differences in the suburban areas and the urban core, but as I go around the new city, I first of all meet a lot of people who, in their lives, move back and forth between the two areas. Many of the people who live in the suburban areas live there because there is a large urban core nearby and they understand the need to have it a strong and healthy place. Many people have worked to improve the quality of life in their own neighbourhoods and they want to protect that. I've lived in downtown Toronto but have also lived in suburban areas. At the end of the day, people want mostly the same things. They want to have a job, they want their kids to have jobs, they want to feel safe, they want respect, they want a sense of control over the things around them.

SD: No matter what part of Toronto they're in.

BH: Yes.

SD: How hard has it been to campaign in these suburban areas in the face of this city amalgamation? I mean, you've said you don't know what the costs of downloading social spending will be or what funds will be available. Mel's been making fairly wild promises, but you've been very prudent. Has it been difficult, then, in trying to hold back because you see that as being reasonable but, on the other hand, wanting to say more for the sake of your campaign?

BH: Well as the campaign progresses, there's been more opportunity to move beyond the sort of 15-second clips and into some substantive discussion of the issues. And I'm sometimes surprised at how high my recognition is in suburban areas. I believe, as I did three years ago, that - as people start to think more about the issues, that my support would grow and I think we've seen that happen.

SD: With the dubiousness of this whole Megacity business, it just seems that the whole campaign, in all of the newspapers, has just been boiled down to personality - "You vs. Mel" - and people aren't exactly sure just what the issues are.

BH: Because it's a major change and because so many things will evolve or be worked out, I don't think it's so much a question of personality but more a question of the kind of leadership, the style of leadership, and I think that that message is getting across. I believe that, if you bring people together, you find the answers. it's going to be complex, getting a council of 56 people to work together and so I think my consensus-building approach will be what we need and that the more autocratic style of my opponent will create chaos in the new council. I think one of the things we're seeing in this campaign is the record of myself and my opponent in understanding and addressing complex issues. If you want to have a safe city or you want a strong economy, it's not about grandstanding on one issue. You need a lot of different strategies in each of those areas. Do you wait for people to come to you or are you somebody who's naturally interested in what's happening and you go out on your own? I don't claim to know all the answers but I'm prepared to ask people regularly, "What are the questions?" (laughing)

SD: What I find interesting is the way that people will say that they don't want that sort of authoritarian-style leader but then they'll turn around and say, "We're crying out for leadership! The public needs leadership!" Watching people getting all submissive with this "oh let's just vote for Mel and let him take over" attitude.

BH: Though we see posters all over town that say "MEL MAKES IT WORK" but you could ask the questions, "Makes what work?" or "Makes it work for whom?" My opponent has started to change his language because People know that one person doesn't make it work. He's now using words like 'consensus'. You know, on one hand, we'd all love a special godmother with a wand to make everything wonderful but we've stopped putting our teeth under our pillows and we know that the real world requires all of us getting involved and taking responsibility. My opponent takes a perspective that you're either on his side or you're not and that, if you disagree with people on one issue, you're incapable of working with them on something else!

SD: My way or the highway?

BH: Exactly. and with a big council. where people are going to disagree on many issues: a diverse city, the need to work with other levels of government. I mean, I disagree with the Harris government on many, many issues but, at the same time, I'm still working with them on some economic issues and other things.

SD: Well, it's not like you can ignore them or shut yourself up in your office.

BH: Yes.

SD: Now, speaking of the Harris government, there's been some talk about Tory involvement with this election and obviously they've been actively involved in creating this Megacity. Do you feel any sort of party politicking creeping into this whole thing, where you're the quasi-NDP candidate and Mel's the quasi-Tory?

BH: Well, my campaign team this time and last time included people from all parties and no parties. To me, the big strength of local government is that there isn't a formal party system and you can work to find real consensus on issues, something you can't do at the federal or provincial level.

SD: It's one of the interesting things about Toronto - having red Tories and conservative NDP on total agreement on some issues.

BH: That's right. It's clear that my opponent has strong ties to the Harris government. Mr. Harris himself has endorsed him. Many other MPPs - Steve Gilcrest, the person responsible for the Megacity, many of the key people from the Harris election campaign - are on his team. He and Mike Harris are the only two people in this province, virtually, who are saying that the provincial downloading will result in neutral financial impact. Every other Mayor - even the right-wing National Citizens' Coalition - is saying that tax increases come from amalgamation! My concern is that to have a Mayor that's closely aligned with the most anti-urban provincial government this province has ever seen would be a disaster! (there is a pause)

SD: Well, in conclusion I thought I'd just let you have the floor and speak to the gay and lesbian voters out there.

BH: Well, I admire the gay and lesbian community for really working to make the downtown livable and I look forward to continuing to work on that. I think there's still a lot to do and all of us have a lot of concerns about what this new structure means, but I think that if we take our energy and creativity and continue working, we'll protect what we've built and add to it.

SD: Sounds good. Thank you for chatting with us.

BH: Thank you.


Despite repeated attempts to arrange an interview with Mr. Mel Lastman's campaign office that would discuss gay and lesbian issues, our calls were not returned.